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The case of the people person who fell out of love with people.
Summary: On this episode of The Science of Happiness, we’re featuring an episode from the Proxy podcast, hosted by Yowei Shaw. The episode follows Zakiya Gibbons, who also appeared on our show recently to explore science-based ways of connecting with her intuition. In this Proxy episode, Zakiya shares a personal reflection on how the pandemic altered her social life and sense of identity, offering an honest look at how our personalities can shift in response to major life changes.
Transcription:
SHUKA KALANTARI: Hi, this is Shuka Kalantari. Today on The Science of Happiness, we’re sharing an episode from our friends at the Proxy podcast, hosted by Yowei Shaw. If you caught our episode yesterday, you’ll recognize today’s guest, Zakiya Gibbons. Yesterday, Zakiya explored research-backed ways to tap into her intuition. In this episode of Proxy, she opens up about how the pandemic changed her social life and sense of self, and what it means for our personalities to shift over time.
YOWEI SHAW: As somebody with social anxiety, I just didn’t realize that you could develop it.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I didn’t either. I didn’t either, bitch.
YOWEI SHAW: Welcome to Proxy. I’m Yowei Shaw, your emotional investigative journalist. Today, the case of the people person who’s fallen out of love with people. That’s after the break.
YOWEI SHAW: I’ve got this thing that I keep doing that. Like, well, it gives me kind of a hit. I think it’s bad for me and I tell myself no more. I’m done. I’m gonna stop. It’s draining. It sucks up the little money I have. But then every six months, one thing leads to another I forget about these complaints and I take a train north or south, and I show up at the next podcast event. I catch up with friends who are all underemployed. I rub elbows with strangers and tell them way too much about myself. I revisit old trauma from jobs. I get depressed about the future of podcasting. I cry in some bar every time. But then every once in a while I’m reminded why keep coming to these events. Because I meet people like Zakiya Gibbons. Zakiya and I hit it off right away at the bar. I think we mostly talked about where the line is on appropriate work attire? All I remember is laughing a lot and by the end of the conversation, Zakiya asked for my number and started a group chat with the name too embarrassing to say into a microphone. She’s easily one of the most exuberant, open people I’ve ever met, the type of person who thrives at a conference, unlike me. So I found it really hard to square this ball-of-fire extrovert with the problem Zakiya’s been dealing with for the past few years. Which is that she doesn’t feel that way anymore…She no longer has that pull to see other people, and it really bothers her.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I feel like I know myself pretty well. And with such a core character trait as being a people person, being a yapper. And so for me to feel that slip away, it was kind of an existential thing of like, who am I?
YOWEI SHAW: The old Zakiya, the one she misses, was in her late 20s. Working her dream job as a podcast producer in New York City, and also living her best life outside of work.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Like nightlife is extremely important to me. I kind of like being chaotic and having plans on plans on plans. My apartment was just kind of a place for me to sleep. My friends would always joke and be like, bitch, how are you on a boat? Like I would always just like randomly end up on a boat.
YOWEI SHAW: A typical week. Zakiya goes to work at her high-powered public radio job. Gets dinner with a friend. Vibes with their hot waitress.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: And I was like, hey what’s good? Blah blah blah.
YOWEI SHAW: Zakiya goes back to work, cuts another interview for her job. She gets invited to a party.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I’m like, strangers! Love it.
YOWEI SHAW: The party turns out to be boring and pretentious. But Zakiya makes friends with another queerdo in the corner and they decide to amuse themselves.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I just remember being like, let’s break the rules. We’re going upstairs. Who lives here in this like low key mansion? Then Zakiya is at another party.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Somehow I end up in a hot tub with these two self-proclaimed vampires.
YOWEI SHAW: She hits up the hot waitress, who’s closing up shop for the night. And Zakiya is now in the back kitchen dancing with restaurant workers, making out with the hottest guy there.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: And then I get home at like 5 a. m. Wow, that was fun.
YOWEI SHAW: After a couple hours of sleep, Zakiya goes back to work and does it all again. But then 2020 hits. It’s lockdown. Zakiya’s roommate moves back to Florida and Zakiya finds herself living alone for the first time for an entire year, and she discovers that she likes being alone.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I was just thinking about Castaway, the movie, you know, Tom Hanks and Wilson. I would say like my Wilson in those times was my iridescent bong that I named Princess Mononoke. Like that was my baby. I would nurse her. She’d be lying on my titty. I’d be like watching 90 Day Fiance, hitting the bong rip and just be like, wow, I just love not having to speak to anyone for days on end. I love just being in my PJs. I love just my own thoughts not having to answer to anyone. It felt delicious. I felt a warm glow inside of me that I would get when I was out chopping it up with new people or connecting with old friends, dancing my heart out on the dance floor. I felt that same inner glow by myself, just in my apartment.
YOWEI SHAW: Fast forward to the vaccine. Things open back up, and Zakiya attends a brunch at her friend’s house. Something she’s done a million times.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I get there. I have a full blown panic attack. I’ve had panic attacks before, but it’s usually fueled by being violently high at a concert packed with a bunch of people. But I’ve never had social anxiety. I’ve never been triggered into a panic attack in a safe space, like my friend’s apartment with people I know. And that’s when I was like, oh, this is new. And then ever since then, the things that used to give me joy were triggering me: like talking to people, being in new social situations, small talk.
YOWEI SHAW: For the next few years, Zakiya searches for an excuse to stay home and not go to social events, sometimes for an entire month. When 2023 kicks Zakiya in the face – her mom getting sick, a breakup and having to move, a toxic work environment, then work drying up, then getting sick herself – and the new Zakiya wants to tunnel even more into the fluffy bubble of her couch.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: In my head I was like, well, this is self care. Like what does my body want? To not move. What does my body want? To watch Love Island.
YOWEI SHAW: When Zakiya does have to venture into the world for a friend’s birthday or some podcasting thing, she panics. She told me about this one networking event.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I remember just going to the bathroom and just trying to breathe, trying to come up with a game plan, and also low key, trying to wait out the clock until the programming started. I used to be able to go someplace by myself and just walk into the room purse first, and grab a drink, go up to a group of people and be like, oh my God, how do you know so and so? And you know, kind of start conversation out of nowhere. That’s why I think it made it even harder ’cause I was just looking in the mirror and being like, what is wrong with you? You can talk to people. You’re grown. You’ve done this before. Why can’t you do this now?
YOWEI SHAW: I asked Zakiya some basic stuff. Things I found myself wondering. Is it the weed? Is that what’s making her a shut in? She said I’ve thought about that. I’ve stopped smoking as much. Is Zakiya just traumatized from her horrible year? She said she’s in therapy and feels like the worst is over. Which leaves her with a question. Is this just who she is now and she needs to accept it? Or is there a chance she can get back to the self she misses? Sometimes she’ll get these flickers, walking down the street hearing strangers laugh inside a restaurant, and she’ll feel that glow inside again. But then she’ll be on a Tinder date and get drained immediately and she’ll find herself thinking an unfamiliar thought: god they’re annoying.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I just feel like now I just want to stay in my apartment. I don’t want anyone fucking talking to me. No new friends. I don’t know. I just kind of didn’t recognize myself. And still don’t.
YOWEI SHAW: After the break, we find a proxy to try to give Zakiya some answers.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: And now I’m rolling yes.
YOWEI SHAW: The day of the proxy conversation, 6 months have gone by. It’s January.
YOWEI SHAW: Well, Happy New Year.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Yes, Happy New Year. Honestly, Happy New Year.
YOWEI SHAW: Zakiya and I are on the video call waiting for the proxy to show
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Sorry, I thought I saw chicken in my teeth. I scarfed down some chicken two minutes ago. Okay.
YOWEI SHAW: How are you feeling about this proxy conversation?
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I’m nervous. I’m like, wait, what’s about to happen? Is it gonna be fun? Will I cry? It’s okay if I do. I’m a crier.
YOWEI SHAW: Oh wait, the proxy is here. Should I let them in? Are you ready?
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Um yes, I’m ready.
YOWEI SHAW: So the proxy. As we were looking for a proxy for Zakiya, there were a couple directions we could go. We could have found someone who like Zakiya, had lost her joie de vivre, but then managed to find herself again. But we were also interested in the questions Zakiya raised about personality. Big, probably unanswerable questions. Like has her personality fundamentally changed? And if so, is it possible for her to change it back? Who is the real Zakiya anyway? This is how I found Bill.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Hey, everybody.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Hi, I’m dying to know who you are.
YOWEI SHAW: We do a round of introductions.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: So I’m, uh, Dr. Bill Chopik. I’m an associate professor of psychology. Michigan State University. Um, yeah, I’m an expert in how people change over time.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I have a soft spot for academics. My parents are academics and I just, and like I said, I studied psychology, so I’m kind of like, so I also was nerding out, like, what am I gonna learn?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Not everybody does. So I love to hear that.
YOWEI SHAW: Well, Bill, why did you get into this line of work? Like why are you interested in personality change?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: I think it started really young. Just interested in why people think the way they do, what are the internal struggles and strife people have. And then it kind of came to a head when I was working a job in high school. When I was a teenager, um, I worked in a bar. I was mostly like a bar back, stocking beer and changing ice, and changing kegs emptying ashtrays.
YOWEI SHAW: That does sound illegal.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: It does sound illegal, doesn’t it?
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: You sounded like a cool teenager though.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Thanks for saying that. I don’t know if that’s totally true, But yeah, it was a cool job for sure. But you know, the funny thing is like when you spend just like large amounts of time with people, especially at a bar that’s kind of inherently social, you kind of just talk to a lot of people. You get a sense of where they came from. The things that have gone well. The things that have gone poorly. The explanations that people have had for why they ended up the way they do. And I worked there for a long time so that I kind of saw people change and get better or get worse.
YOWEI SHAW: Oh, you mean like the regulars?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah the regulars. So the people that would show up at like 11 o’clock ready to go, or the people who would celebrate anniversaries or engagements or childbirths. And then of course, really tragic things And I think that just gave me an appreciation about how complex people are.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Yes.
YOWEI SHAW: Zakiya runs through her case for Bill.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I don’t know I wouldn’t describe myself as a manic pixie dream girl, but that zest for life that they have…
YOWEI SHAW: How she used to love talking to people and going out. But ever since lockdown and a horrific 2023.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Some crisis…
YOWEI SHAW: Zakiya felt like an introvert and wanted to stay home on her couch.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: And then I got to a point where everybody and everything annoyed me. I need to get home. I need to not be talking to this person.
YOWEI SHAW: What you’re about to hear is the proxy conversation, which we always edit for clarity and brevity. And by the way, Kyle the engineer wanted me to say that yes, we know my audio doesn’t sound great. That’s not him. That’s me. Sorry about that. I pressed the wrong button in the moment. Whoops. Ok. Here’s Zakiya and Bill.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I’m aware that I’m 32 now and there’s different circumstances and context, so it’s not just like I’m trying to replicate 24-year-old me, but there just still seems something that transcends time and age that is just part of me. And I’m so like what is fixed? What is malleable? And should I accept that this is who I am now? But I feel like I don’t accept it because I don’t feel good. Good as in I feel connected to myself and that soul is glowing.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, I mean everything you said is really reasonable. Your experience with going from being very social to being inside and then slowly coming out and then struggling with that. I think a lot of people would identify with that. That there’s this massive stressor that happened, namely a global pandemic where lots of people are scared of the world and people died, and it made people think about other people differently. But one abnormal part of the story is how many stressors piled up at once. Moving alone is actually incredibly stressful. If that was the only thing that happened that year, it would be a stressful year. But the fact that she, you know, your mom was really sick and you were perhaps sick and your workplace didn’t seem like a really hospitable place to work. And the fact that it knocked you off kilter is not the craziest thing.
YOWEI SHAW: Bill, I think for a lot of listeners, they probably have never heard of a personality researcher before. Like what is a personality? How are you measuring it? What are you listening for when you hear Zakiya’s story to try to even figure out has she changed?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, it’s really tricky. There’s so many facets to us. Humans are so complicated, but over the years, personality psychologists have really drilled it down to kind of five things to describe someone. And all those little facets and intricacies and nuances and idiosyncrasies are kind of combinations of those basic five things. And they call them the
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Oh my God. Are you about to say the OCEAN thing?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah yeah.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I just, is this just back from when I studied psychology and I think about this acronym all the time and I’m like, my O is dropping. Can I see if I got it?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Sure.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: If I remember, is it OCEAN – openness to experience, conscientiousness, extroversion, A uh, is that anxiety? No. Agreeableness and neuroticism.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yup, exactly you got it. So yeah, when Zakia is like, oh yeah, I have a short fuse, or I’m more anxious, I’m less outgoing. I’m like, okay, well that falls into this category here and this there. And traits are just that. It’s just like how people describe themselves. It doesn’t speak to anything deeper. So you’re, yeah, I should have said this earlier, you’re not a broken person. It’s not that you’re irredeemable. It’s just these are some behavioral patterns you’ve fallen into, and then the key is to investigate why. And a lot of personality psychology Is that, kind of like finding out – what are the things that cause these traits to change? You listed a bunch of things that could have changed them.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: So isn’t everything scored one to five?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Not always, but the survey you took probably was yeah.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Okay. So yeah, our professor had everyone take it out of five. I scored a 4.5 out of five under neuroticism, and I didn’t really know what that word meant back then. I turned my friend and I was like, what’s neuroticism? And he is like, oh, you would be a 4.5. And I was like, what does that mean?
BC: Oh my god! Some friend!
ZG: And then now, I kind of think about that all the time, just being, well, you did score a 4.5 and I think I’m always gonna be a little neurotic. But I feel like it’s a double-edged sword. I feel like it makes me think really deeply about things, which I enjoy. But then it also makes me think really deeply about things which can be hard.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Right.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I scored high, agreeableness. I scored high, conscientious. And I would say I feel like openness has dropped, conscientiousness I don’t think has dropped. Extroversion dropped. Agreeableness, I don’t think it’s dropped.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: I’m really happy that you mentioned the good things about neuroticism. ‘Cause there’s also bad things about constantly being agreeable. I am so conflict averse. It’s caused problems.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Oh my god it’s not good.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, yeah, and like neuroticism. There’s like a vigilance about things that is really helpful sometimes. You know, imagine that you had no anxieties. That actually causes a lot of problems too. The fact that you would trust everything uncritically, that you would never be worried about your performance in any domain. Likewise, the uber extroverted person isn’t always the greatest person at the party, the one that has all these superficial relationships. So these traits aren’t like inherently good or bad and I think that that’s good to at least acknowledge.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Yeah, I guess the scary thing is that like especially if we’re sticking with OCEAN, if there’s like one letter that like really lended to the – I don’t know why I keep insisting on saying joie de vivre when I literally don’t know how to say it. But yeah, the openness to experience, the quote unquote before Zakia. I’ll try anything once was truly how I lived life. And sometimes it would get me in trouble. Sometimes it led to some dope things, but at least I was living life really fully, and I was really present. And I feel like that kind of fed my creativity and fed the fire that was slash is the glow that makes me, me. And I don’t like being closed off. That’s just like kind of antithetical to who I am intellectually and emotionally.
YOWEI SHAW: Bill, could you explain what do we see in the research about how people tend to change in personality across a lifespan and where does Zia’s experience fit inside that?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, so people do change with age. There are these things called normative changes, which is just how people change on average. But you know, one thing that’s consistently found across age is that people, to put it in a non-scientific way, they kind of get their shit together, become more mature. So yeah, so things like conscientiousness go up partially because we’re rewarded for kind of doing well. We become a little bit less extroverted. There’s a bunch of reasons for that. Some of it has to do with like our romantic relationships too, where we kinda withdraw from friends. But yeah, you become a little less open, be partially because you don’t find yourself in dramatically new situations as you get older. And then for the most part, people become a little bit more emotionally stable over time. So you are both consistent and inconsistent with the average person. The fact that you became a little less social, that’s not that dramatic. But the fact that you became more anxious, that is a problem because for the most part, people kind of chill out when they get older.
YOWEI SHAW: Bill, after hearing Zakiya’s story, do you think her personality has changed?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: So, If you listed everything you did the past week, and if we had a magical time machine and we were going to go back and talk to 22-year-old Zakiya and we said, hey, list all the things you did this week, those lists would probably be really different, right? What did you do for fun? You know, what was work like today? Where’d you go to eat? Where did you walk around? How nice were you to people? You know? The fact that those things are different suggests that maybe you have changed.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Ah it’s like very sobering to hear from someone who does not know me, but also knows very well what I’m talking about, to be like, yes, you have changed. But it is helpful to hear like but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. That’s just something that happens. It’s kind of like mourning the old me. She was so fun though. Damn. Pour one out.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: But the truth is over any short period of time, there will be fluctuations in your personality. So the timeframe matters. So it’s like, am I different than I was when I was 22? The answer is certainly yes. But where you’re at right now in your life is the period of most dramatic personality change.
YOWEI SHAW: Oh, what do you mean?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, early twenties to thirties and then, you know, after about age 50 or 60 people do still change, but it’s much less dramatic.
YOWEI SHAW: Why?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: A bunch of reasons. So one thing is you’re still figuring your life out, so then you try a bunch of new things. Your situations shift dramatically. So just the things you told me today. You had a series of roommates. You had a series of relationships. You, had a bunch of different hobbies. I’m guessing maybe you lived in different parts of the city or you would hang out in different parts of the city. Um, that’s a ton of different stuff. And the truth is like people will often explore situations and try new things when they’re young. But as a result, they find themselves in situations that change them and around people who change them. Over time though, when, you know, imagine people get older, they get settled in their career. They find a long-term partner. They just settle in such a ways that they’re not exposed as much to new situations. Maybe they’re a little less sensitive to experiences too. So, you know, imagine the first time you did some kind of really fun activity like meditation or art or something that really fills your soul, that’s different than it’s like the 50th time you’ve done that, right?
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Yeah
WILLIAM CHOPIK: So there’s a lot of you left to be written. It’s like if you stopped reading after page 30 of a book, well what happens next? The truth is like we don’t quite know, and this is the difficulty is we won’t know and for another 20 years if this was truly the genuine change or not.
YOWEI SHAW: But of course, Zakiya wants to go back to being a people person. So how? That’s after the break.
YOWEI SHAW: So if Zakiya wants to actively change her personality, can she? Bill explains that if she does, it will probably have everything to do with the people around her. He’s seen it in his own life.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, you know, the interesting thing is, I told you this origin story about kind of having these deep conversations with regulars and I think I veered away from that in college where I didn’t have as many opportunities. I kind of just went an hour and a half south of where I grew up. I kind of chose to go to a college that my friends had gone to and I didn’t make a lot of new friends.
YOWEI SHAW: Even though he had a core group of the same friends from high school, he’d go days without talking to another human. He was so focused on academics and doing research. But then Bill took his introverted self to Michigan for grad school. It was the first time he’d lived out of state. He didn’t know anyone, and every time he met someone, he was scared he’d embarrass himself. But Bill pushed himself to say yes to lunch dates. To karaoke. To drag shows.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: And I got into this really great friend group, which is purely chance based. I had a really sheltered life and then I found myself in a graduate program with someone who worked at a sexual health clinic. Someone who was like a multi-deployed veteran who left after 9/11. Someone who studied Black sexuality and like Jezebel stereotypes, And it’s like, oh, who’s this like white kid, white man from Chicago learning about Bell Hooks and Crenshaw? Bill suddenly found himself going on road trips, helping friends move, dressing up for Halloween in group costumes. He relaxed and became a jokester.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: I don’t know it was just like a really transformative experience. And I, I think part of it was those people were just so open to friendship And then I like fell in love with people again, I was like, oh man, people are so awesome and complicated and horrible and wonderful. So yeah, like, I have friends Amy and Ally and Mike and Lenise, and they were just like a huge part of my life like the reason I am the way I am today and I’m not like sulky sad and a shut in, I think it was because they met me at like a very crucial time in my life that. They kinda showed me what was possible.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Everything you’re saying, like we have so much in common. Little before, when you were saying, you know you fell out of love with people. And I was just like dunno that for me, that’s the stuff of life is understanding other people and connecting with other people. That was kind of my driving force in life, big and small, from like the journalism I do to why I leave the house. You know what’s wild? I did this self-compassion workshop a few years ago. We would do like mindfulness meditation and it was kind of like group therapy. But like one thing I took away from it that I had never asked myself before was like, what do I need right now? Because before I would just be like, go, go, go, go, go. But I would never ask like, what do I need? So I feel like I, you know, ask like, what do I need right now? And then I’m like, I need to cancel plans, turn on the TV and watch Housewives. I actually did have to do nothing because 2023 was nonstop mayhem. And then I feel like I kept choosing that. Like, what do I need right now? I’m like, I need to not do anything. And so then I got confused because I’m like, well, I’m listening to my body. My body is saying I’m tired and I want to watch TV. So then I would do that, but then I’m like, but that also doesn’t feel like what I need right now, so how do I know what I need right now?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah, there’s this cruel irony to that where the isolation and going your own way actually undermines your goals in the long run because when you think of people who, yeah, shut off other people in the pursuit of this individualistic goal. That’s when stability like increases where like they become more stable. And then it’s harder and harder to change because then their perspectives are never challenged. Their habits are never broken. So even though everything in your body is telling you not to, if you were to go to this social event, the fact that you force yourself is really, really important. Because then if you start to get into those situations, that’s when you can get out of the rut.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: So what you’re saying is even if it feels like what you need, don’t do it?
WILLIAM CHOPIK: It’s so tough. Yeah, you’re overriding like a natural tendency to like do the comfortable thing. And that’s partially why personality stabilizes over time is people kind of fall into these habitual patterns where, yeah, it’s easier to like, watch Real Housewives, than kind of venture out, meet new people, do this dramatically different thing. But, you know, the self-compassion workshop, I think actually if it changes people at all, it’s not necessarily about the self-acceptance. If anything, maybe it’s the unburdening of stuff that’s holding you back from doing other things. And I think the other things is the key. So you know, if you learn to accept yourself and that’s what was holding you back from like dating or seeking out new friendships, then I think that self-compassion thing will work. However, if it’s just, I am perfect in every way and I’m accepting that and I never have to change, then there’s a danger to that, right? I think if you wanna change, the thing you have to do is change.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: And it sounds like no shit. Like especially hearing it out loud where it’s like, change the thing you’re unhappy with
WILLIAM CHOPIK: If it were easy…
YOWEI SHAW: The thing is, it’s famously hard to change people. Including yourself. But Bill and his colleagues have done studies that show it is possible. It just takes time and a ton of work.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: It really does start with us asking the question that partially underlied this conundrum that we’re talking about is, do you wanna change? What’s the particular thing that you don’t like about yourself that you’d wanna change? And then we took people seriously.
YOWEI SHAW: They gave the people homework, every week, for 4 months. They gave participants challenges to complete that would help them change in the domains they wanted. For instance, if someone wanted to be more extraverted, their task one week might be to go to a public place where people mingle and say hi to someone new. Then another week, plan a meet up to go birding with strangers.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: They recorded what they did during the week and they recorded their personality, and then sure enough, if they were able to engage in the things they changed in the direction that they wanted to change. So the agreeable people became more agreeable. The neurotic people became less neurotic. The shy people became more outgoing. The people who kind of struggled to do schoolwork or like perform at the job, they started to do better too.
YOWEI SHAW: To see if these changes were because of the interventions or just placebo, Bill and his colleagues did another variation of the study where they gave participants the wrong intervention on purpose. Say someone wanted to be less neurotic, but got homework to become a nicer person every week for 4 months straight – like giving a family member a compliment or forgiving someone. And what the researchers found is that the person didn’t get less neurotic like they wanted, but they did get nicer.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: What matters is you doing the things. It’s not like whether or not you think that we’re helping you in this way. It’s not like a placebo effect where, oh, I just get better if I try.
YOWEI SHAW: Even if you don’t believe you can change, Bill says just doing the work will change you. He told us about another study where he measured people’s beliefs about whether personality can change and again, gave people challenges to complete every week for 4 months.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: So we looked at that, does it matter if they’re this misanthropic denialist about the capacity of change and it doesn’t matter either. Even for the cynical amongst us, if we’re willing to invest in it, it could lead to really amazing changes, even if you don’t believe it works.
YOWEI SHAW: I asked Bill how much change we’re talking and he said on average, these are not massive changes. It’s not like people are doing 180s here. But Bill says that doesn’t mean the changes can’t still be meaningful to the person. It’s all relative. Whatever the case, if Zakiya wants to get back any people person-ness that she’s been missing, one thing is for sure. She will need to put in the work. And it turns out that Zakiya has already started giving herself homework, kind of in the way that Bill might.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Ok so this is actually very vulnerable. I made this doc.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Tell us. Please!
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: Ok this is actually a link to the note.
YOWEI SHAW: Zakiya shared with us a notes app of her in’s and outs for the year. Situations she wanted to put herself in and not put herself in. A sprawling document almost as long and more rated R than the list of challenges Bill gives participants in his studies.
YOWEI SHAW: This is such a wonderful list.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Yeah
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: There’s a couple inappropriate ones where I’m like ooop. Honestly say whatever you want.
YOWEI SHAW: In for 2025: dance floor makeouts, eavesdropping, sliding in DMs.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Ok my eyes went right to bad bitch music as an In.
YOWEI SHAW: Also being a bitch to people who deserve it.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: Oh great. Yeahhh!
YOWEI SHAW: Out for 2025: rushing, non-restorative mindless TV watching, making snap judgments about people.
WILLIAM CHOPIK: When I see Zakiya’s list, it’s pretty amazing. There’s socializing stuff. There’s wholesome stuff. There’s also stuff that you discovered about yourself that you’d want to preserve. There’s solitary time that’s really meaningful and maybe that would have really scared Zakiya when she was 20. But I think you came to peace with it and oh I actually really like that about myself. But then there’s a bunch of risky stuff too that will change the situation. Which is if we put stock in it is what we think is the thing that changes people.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: What you’re saying is really affirming to me in that yeah I’m not being too optimize your life, rise and grind. But am I tired of just, I’m like alright. I want to get off the couch and leave my apartment literally and metaphorically,
YOWEI SHAW: Thank you to Bill Chopik for being our proxy today. Bill is a psychology professor at Michigan State. And of course, thank you to Zakiya Gibbons. Zakiya hosted this queer reality dating show podcast that I am obsessed with. It’s called Hang Up. You should listen. To hear about Zakiya’s projects coming up, you can follow her on Instagram @zak_sauce.
YOWEI SHAW: This episode was edited by Tim Howard, produced by me and mixed by Kyle Pulley. Research and production support from Kim Nederveen Pieterse, with help from Anakaren Santana and Charlie Kline. Our newsletter editor is Juliana Feliciano Reyes. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and theme music by Breakmaster Cylinder. As always, you can follow us on Instagram @proxypodcast and I’m at @yoweishaw. We also have a free newsletter! You can sign up at our website: proxypodcast.com. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator-owned, listener-supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia-dot-f-m. Radiotopia’s executive producer is Audrey Mardavich, and Yooree Losordo is director of network operations. If you’ve enjoyed the show and feel like it’s worth reviewing, please do leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. But more importantly, tell just one person that you liked this episode. Word of mouth, more than any other form of promotion is how creative work and journalism like this gets noticed and sustains itself. Ok Thank you very much for listening.
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I took this, um, self-compassion workshop and they talk about if your heart is a closed fist, if you hear, you know, the right affirmations, the, the right advice, receive love or whatever, eventually over time, that fist will loosen and open and then like the words or love or whatever can actually come through and be received. I feel like I’ve been a closed fist for a minute now, and I just feel like, um, the loosening, the fisting is it.
YOWEI SHAW: I was like, what? Where is this going?
ZAKIYA GIBBONS: I know. I’m like, ooh, this is a great time for fisting. Um, I’m ready to receive a huge fist.
